Argument Night Topics

If you would like to contribute to this page, the password is the name of Pete's brother in Seattle (all lowercase). Or you can just mail items to add to Pete.

• Next argument night: Fri 3/28 7:30pm location: Monkey Skull Voodoo Lounge
• In:
• Bylaws: ByLaws
• Argument Night Minutes: ArgumentNight070707 ArgumentNight01062006 ArgumentNight12012006
• References: Logical Errors

Suggested Topics for Next Meeting

1. Happiness (and other questions for 3/28)
1. Survey Questions
1. How happy are you? (0%-100%, with 0% being absolutely miserable, 50% neutral, and 100% absolutely happy
2. How much of our happiness can we personally control? (0-100%) (E.g. as opposed to genes, happenstance)
3. How moral a person are you (0% - 100%, use your own definition)
4. What is the probability that Hillary Clinton will win the Democratic nomination? (0%-100%) (Markets 18%-19.6%)
5. What is the likelihood that George W. Bush has been the worst U.S. president of our lifetimes? (0%-100%)
6. What is the positive or negative connotation of the word "socialism" for you? (0% absolutely negative, 50% = neutral, 100% = absolutely positive
7. What is the positive or negative connotation of the term "labor union" for you? (0% absolutely negative, 50% = neutral, 100% = absolutely positive
2. Discussion Questions
1. How do you define happiness?
2. What are the largest factors in your happiness?
3. Is human behavior simply an attempt to attain happiness?
4. If things like money and material belongings don't result in greater happiness, should we keep ### pursuing them as much as we currently are?
5. What sorts of things should government do with respect to your right to "the pursuit of happiness"?
6. Would it be wrong for "normal" people to take a drug that makes them happier?
7. What might "positive psychology" offer?
3. Misc. Notes
1. "Reported well-being of one's identical twin, either now or 10 years earlier, is a far better predictor of one's self rated happiness than one's own educational achievement, income, or status. This held not only for identical twins raised together but for those brought up apart, while for fraternal twins raised in the same household, the likelihood that one's sense of well-being matched one's twin was, stratistically speaking, not much greater than chance." (NYRB 4/3/2208)
2. "... a year or so after an accident, people with paralyzing spinal cord injuries tend to be, on average, no more or less happy than anyone else." (ibid)
3. David Llykken and his collaborator Auke Tellegen, ... found that over time the nonnegotiable biological aspects of temperament increased to the point where "it may be that trying to be happier is as futile as trying to be taller and therefore is counterproductive." (ibid)
4. "The researchers also know from their surveys that the happiest of happy Americans are Republicans, social butterflies, and bigots." (NYRB 4/3/2208)
5. "Careful studies of how women feel as they go about their daily activities show that they are less happy when taking care of children than when eating, exercising, shopping, napping or watching television." (ibid)
6. "People often bristle at the suggestion that human behavior is merely an attempt to attain happiness. They offer two objections. First (they say), people care about many things other than happiness — for example, truth, justice, and the American way — and thus there is more to life than happiness. Second (they add), there are different kinds of happiness — for example, the deep, moral happiness I feel when I save starving orphans isn't the cheap, bovine happiness I feel when I save money. Both objections are wrong." Daniel Gilbert
7. "We are often quite poor at predicting what will make us happy in the future for two reasons. First, we have been given a lot of disinformation about happiness by two sources: Genes and culture. Both genes and cultures are self-perpetuating entities that need us to do things for them so that they can survive. Because we are interested in our own happiness and not theirs, both entities fool us into believing that's what is good for them is also good for us. We believe that having children will make us happy, that consuming goods and services will make us happy. But the data show that money has minor and rapidly diminishing effects on happiness, and that parents are generally happier watching TV or doing housework than interacting with their children." (ibid)
8. "We're all told that variety is the spice of life. But variety is not just over-rated, it may actually have a cost. Research shows that people do tend to seek more variety than they should. We all think we should try a different doughnut every time we go to the shop, but the fact is that people are measurably happier when they have their favorite on every visit — provided the visits are sufficiently separated in time." (ibid)
9. "The five most positive activities for these women were (in descending order) sex, socializing, relaxing, praying or meditating, and eating. Exercising and watching TV were not far behind. But way down the list was "taking care of my children," which ranked below cooking and only slightly above housework." Time: The New Science of Happiness

1. Are the beliefs of conservative Christians (or Scientologists) any more fantastical than core, common beliefs of 20th century psychoanalysis? Ray and I were once talking about something like people believing in demon possession or the Rapture, which Ray described as the equivalent of being worried about being eaten by a griffin. There are some pretty fantastical beliefs in conservative Christianity (if you do not agree, substitute "Scientology" for "conservative Christianity"). But are the core, common beliefs of 20th century psychoanalysis any less fantastical than the notions of conservative Christians or Scientologists? (Notes: Don't confuse psychoanalysis and general psychotherapy; see PsychNotes for more)

1. Criminal Convictions: A recent study has found that American courts get the verdict wrong in an estimated 23% of criminal cases, with jury decisions wrong in approximately 1 of every 8 cases, and judge's decisions wrong in approximately 1 of every 9. Further, the strong majority of the incorrect decisions are convicting an innocent person, rather than exonerating a guilty person -- which would seem contrary to the intended burden of evidence.
1. Assuming these results are roughly accurate, do they call for changes in our judiciary system?
1. Reference: Estimating the Accuracy of Jury Verdicts

1. Does the G-Spot exist?

1. MoreOnGspot
1. Researcher J. Flanagan has shared this opportunity for scientific glory: Answers In Genesis - Call For Papers
2. Impeachment: For What? In the July 7 argument night, everyone present agreed that Bush and Cheney warranted impeachment, but it was not at all clear that everyone agreed on the reasons why, let alone on which of these were most egregious. Reasons that seemed to mentioned most were suspension of habeas corpus, torture, and warrantless NSA spying. While the general public is essentially 50/50 on impeaching Bush with a clear majority in favor of impeaching Cheney, Americans actually favor these aforementioned activities, and are comfortable with the current level of government intrusion on civil liberties. So while constitutional authorities cite the suspension of these rights and the Geneva Convention, the public's desire for impeachment appears to rest much more on the lies and distortions of the administration in justifying the case for invading Iraq. Similarly, it was the publication of the Downing St. Memo that led to the only official act heretofore toward impeachiment (i.e. filing a resolution to create an investigative committee to consider impeachment) and the mis-use of intelligence is the basis for state of Washington's legislature's memorial on impeachment.
1. Questions:
1. What are the most impeachable offenses of the President and VP?
2. How much should public support be weighed in the decision of whether to impeach the President and/or VP?
2. Some References:
1. American Research Group (Scroll down for impeachment poll quesitons)
2. Gallup Poll on Civil Liberties 2006 Sep 15-17 Excerpts:
1. "As you may know, the Bush administration has been wiretapping telephone conversations between U.S. citizens living in the United States and suspected terrorists living in other countries without getting a court order allowing it to do so. Do you think the Bush administration was right or wrong in wiretapping these conversations without obtaining a court order?" Right=55% Wrong=42% No opinion=3%
2. "As you may know, in the U.S. legal system the government is required to show defendants the evidence it has against them. In some terrorism trials, the government believes that showing defendants certain evidence may put American lives in danger. In your view, which would be worse – ROTATED: convicting defendants of terrorism based on evidence they are never shown, (or) having some terrorism suspects go free because the government chooses to withhold evidence rather than show it to the defendant?"
1. Convicting defendants on evidence they are never shown - 48%
2. Letting some terrorists go free - 41
3. No opinion - 11
3. Washington State Senate Joint Memorial 8016
4. Wikipedia entry on impeachment See in particular the Rationales for Impeachment
3. The chimera controversy:
1. What is your position on chimeras? (More background on the chimera controversy)
1. Should it be prohibited under all circumstances? If so, why?
2. If you don't object to it categorically, under what circumstances would you countenance the creation of such organisms?
1. What if these recombinant organisms were especially resistant, or impervious to such diseases as altzheimer's or cancer for instance?
2. What if they were more peaceful than humans today?
2. Assuming they're allowed, what sort of rights should these organisms have, vis-a-vis a non-recombinant human?

1. More Western Medicine
1. Acupuncture (More specifically?)
2. I (Pete) assume that we all agree that *in general* the government should endeavor to invest our tax dollars in those areas of research that logically offer the best chances of meaningful new discoveries. But how willing should we be to have the government invest tax dollars to investigate beliefs that are supported by large number of the public, even if the consensus of scientific experts in the field is that the claims are debunked and/or a waste of time and money? (Assume for the sake of argument that the experts are not the involved in massive conspiracies and not subject to irrational biases that that would make the public the better judge. If you believe this is not the case, let's add it, and how we choose decision-makers, as an additional topic.)
3. Was it an appropriate use of tax dollars to direct the Mars Global Surveyor temporarily away from NASA priorities in order to photograph the "Face on Mars"?
4. Is there a threshold of public belief and/or interest in Creationism that should lead the government to invest in the research proposals of Creationists?
5. One last question that takes a while to set up: As we have seen, popular support for non-scientific medical claims breaks down by socio-political outlook -- conservatives support things like Christian faith healing and intercessory prayer, while liberals favor "eastern medicine" treatments (term used advisedly, as many have nothing particularly "eastern" about them). The two belief sets rarely if ever mix, and I have yet to meet an individual who was strongly for investing federal tax dollars into both. Nevertheless, we do invest millions of tax dollars into both, primarily through the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCAAM). However, the effects of highly successful Christian faith healers like Pat Robertson and Benny Hinn have not been studied. Further, while NCAAM has funded a few studies of intercessory prayer, it is clear that "eastern"/liberal remedies get by far the lion's share of the NCAAM budget. Perhaps this is because NCAAM is reluctant to invest in cures what arise within or are championed by persons all of a particular sect. But is that wise and fair when there must be thousands of Americans who could testify first-hand to the healing powers of treatments like those of Robertson and Hinn?

1. Are there any topics in the Pete/Steve execution exchange?
2. Are there any topics in Ray's Friday night, drunken, ad hominem rant against the western medical system?

1. Steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs in sport
1. Should athletes be allowed to use performance-enhancing drugs? If so, should there be any regulation of the drugs, or should athletes be allowed to use any substance that provides them an edge?
2. How does the legality of the substance use affect your position on the above?
3. Is there really that much of a difference between athletes who train, diet, undergo therapies and treatments for peak performance to the exclusion of any other vocation, and those who also augment their chemistry with supplements? What is the relevant difference between the banned substances and having especially good nutrition?
4. Do you think that this notion of "drug-free" athletes will be as quaint 50 years from now as the notion of "student-athlete" has become, when comparing the current cohort so described to the students who participated in athletics 50-100 years ago? Or has academia always turned a blind eye to glaring academic deficiencies among the more athletically gifted students?
5. Suppose even that the drugs are very, very dangerous. Should individual athletes not be free to choose to take that risk for themselves?
6. Why do so many baseball fans loathe the idea that Barry Bonds used steroids though they have no problem with Gaylord Perry making it to the Hall of Fame on the strength of his spitball?
7. Is the "war on steroids" one that the professional leagues even want to fight, or is there an implicit concession in professional sports that augmented players are faster, stronger, and therefore more entertaining to watch?

Previous Suggestions

1. NASA - What Priorities?
1. http://www.wired.com/science/space/magazine/15-06/ff_space_nasa
2. Skip building a base on the Moon?
3. How do we spend the tax dollars we stole from Steve?
2. Western medicine
1. Is Western medicine unavoidably corrupt, on account of the Pharmaceutical industrial complex?
2. Should the government launch a "manhattan project" for cures based on non-patentable procedures or compounds?
3. Should the pharmaceutical industry be subsidized to ensure the common welfare?
4. Does medical care function optimally in the free market?
5. Eastern vs. Western medicine: what sort of study would you need to see to believe that Eastern/Alternative medicine (acupuncture, chiropractic, osteopathy, massage, etc.) are successful preventative strategies? What sort of study would suffice to prove their ineffectiveness?
6. A recent JAMA article cited iatrogenic medical intervention as the 3rd leading cause of death on an annual basis. Do you think this study is flawed? If so, in what way? Does western medicine kill more people than it cures? What would be the outcome from a comparable study tracking the mortality rates of alternative medicine?
7. Does use of the term "Western medicine" itself reveal anything interesting about the speaker's assumptions?
8. Should there be more or less emphasis on evidence-based medicine? ("Recent studies show that only about 15% of [doctors'] decisions are evidence-based." Harvard Business Review Jan 2006) There is an argument for less EBM, as well as other critiques of American doctors, in the book "How Doctors Think," which is reviewed in the May 31, 2007 NYRB article What's Wrong With Doctors?
3. Pete's Secret Topic - I have a topic but I don't want people googling it before they answer a couple questions, so I just need this as a reminder to myself.
4. BeliefNight (Fez Rule to be in effect)
1. Add your questions to the BeliefNightSurvey
2. Do people who focus on empiricism/logic/secularism miss out on some important truths and/or experiences?
3. Did Mary Baker Eddy gain insights about the nature of matter via religious enlightenment?
4. Can some people communicate to each other via something like ESP?
5. Should we rely on alternative health methods that are not endorsed by scientific study?
6. Is there a meaningful life after death?
7. For more skeptically inclined, do you hold any beliefs that you can recognize as contradicting the majority of evidence?
8. What do you think are the major factors that lead you to believe (or disbelieve) things in this area that others do not?
9. Is skepticism good or bad for individuals? Good or bad for society?
5. Consciousness (see ConsciousnessNotes)
1. Some relevant links: Searle podcast - Searle transcript - Blackmore book
2. Is the study of the basic nature and problems of understanding consciousness now effectively out of the hands of philosophers and into those of scientists?
3. Is the dualism or the class "mind-body problem" (what is MindBodyProblem) still a perplexing problem, or is it now meaningless to anyone who admits to the empirical evidence of the cognitive sciences?
6. Bigfoot v. Aliens - Preliminary Betting Line (McSweeney's)
7. What should be the top ten ActionItemsForDemocrats if they are elected a majority this Fall?
8. WikipediaAndEncyclopediaBritanica
9. Immigration:
1. Minutemen--vigilante nutjobs, or custodians of American law and ideals?
2. Prosecution of illegal aliens--suitable punishment and deterrent, or dissipative use of scarce law-enforcement resources
3. Illegals--Overall good or bad for the country?
10. Dark Matter: Marginalized physical construct in need of a cosmic leg-up, or whiny particle that brought about its own invisibility?
11. Religions of middle-eastern origin--Islam/Judaism/Christianity. Is there anything good about any of them, or are they hell-bent on an apocalypse? Ululation and violence: Correlation or Causation?
12. Griffinophagophobia (the irrational fear of being eaten by a griffin)--any more or less plausible of a neurosis than the fear of going to hell?
13. Bourgeois wealth: fortuity, entitlement, or immoral scourge?
14. The future of sex in a technological world. Will we bother to have actual sex with flawed people when we can have completely physically satisfying sex with technological analogs, or even figments, instead? Will copulation among people be seen as barbaric, animal behavior, practiced only by freakish atavists?
15. Helping the less fortunate: Various approaches, still in their early stages, may promise a very significant change in how the rich people of the world assist poor people. Will these make a large difference?
1. Microfinance
2. FairTrade practices (wikipedia)
3. Rich celebrities and business persons being more active in these areas (Gates, Buffet, Moore, Brad Pitt & Angelina Jolie)
16. Is it immoral to eat animals? (It's been a long time since we discussed this one.)
1. If not, would it be immoral to eat orphaned humans born with the intelligence of a cow or pig?
2. Would it be immoral for super smart extraterrestrials to eat us?
17. NAFTA, free trade, protectionism - This one may seem boring to some people but it is one of those topics that tends to split white-collar liberals, and one on which many people seemed to have changed their mind over the last decade or so.
18. Public schools should use race as a factor in admitting students.
1. (Follow-up. Public universities should use gender and sexual orientation as a factor in admitting students.)
2. Seattle schools: USA Today Op Ed - Pro / USA Today Op Ed - Con
3. Is an education system that reproduces existing social and economic inequalities and diminishes the life chances of some while improving those of others morally acceptable?
19. Global Warming: I don't know that that anyone disagrees with the mainstream science consensus on global warming, i.e. A) it's happening; B) the major cause is humans; and C) it is dire enough that we should act now. However, I've heard enough people arguing with these points, particularly in light of An Inconvenient Truth, that I think it's worth listing. AAAS article)
20. Taxes How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? Does a restrictive tax regime limit the output of Mr. Woodchuck? Or is it the unions?
21. Death Why does Moses suppose his toes are roses? Maybe he has been listening to the Christian Right? Maybe he just understands his role in Armageddon - just like President Bush and Rabbi Levy.
22. Setting aside the issue of whether atheism is correct, from the point of view of atheists, is it constructive to publicly attack theism and supernaturalism? See NewAtheism
1. Are most highly intelligent people atheists? If so, how do you define "highly intelligent"?
2. Why is the tiny minority of atheists so predominant in certain areas of our lives (science, business, IT, and for some of us, co-workers and pop musicians)?
23. Why does religion exist? DennettNotes
24. In 2006, 43 men will enroll in college for every 57 women. The preponderance of graduates in nearly every professional and graduate school are female. (Esquire) Is this good or bad? Why are these ratios shifting toward more women and less men? Would it be different if the trends were reversed?
25. Only one of the 7 Man-made Wonders of the World (the Pyramids) still exists. What would you choose to be the other six?
26. Assume there is a class of people in America, who struggle to attain what we consider bare minimum comfort levels, and it can be clearly shown that the reason for this was that these people were born with less intelligence.
1. Do people in the same community who are vastly more wealthy have an obligation to help these people?
2. Should government facilitate and require any such assistance?
3. Would your answers change if instead of less intelligence, the difference was a genetic predisposition to take chances and work hard?
27. If public schools teach values, whose values should they teach?
28. What is the appropriate age of consent? Marriage?
29. What is the human conscience?
30. How do relationships impact your morality?
31. When do you get involved in other people's business? Someone in distress? A neighbors child abused?
32. Whose life would you save?
33. Would you walk away from a drowning baby if you had just purchased $400 shoes and they would be ruined?

Argument Night Hall of Fame Arguments

(Or, as some would say, arguments that better adjusted people would be tired of by now.)

1. Moral Realism: (definition) Do absolute moral truths exist in the universe outside of the minds and values of intelligent animals?
1. Is there an argument for the existence of moral realism for which there is not an equivalent and at least equally powerful argument for the existence of God? (see the EvansGodMoralityTheorem)
2. Color Perception: Do colors exist in the universe outside the minds of intelligent animals? See Color Questions for Pete's notes on some related questions. See the colorSubPage for definitions and lemmas.
1. Do humans generally perceive the same colors from the same stimuli? Can we know that while we agree that the color of a firetruck is called "red," that someone else's "red" isn't perceived as the color you call "blue"?
2. Is there a single correct answer to which color should be matched in brains to which specific wavelengths of light.
3. Is there a single correct answer to which color should be matched in brains to which range of wavelenghts of light when taking a test administered by an aviation medical examiner (AME) in order to fullfill Federal Aviation Regulations 67.103, "Ability to perceive those colors necessary for the safe performance of airman duties"?
4. Would this type of "correct" correlation of reflected light to color have relevance for any possible color-perceiving being, or does it apply only to humans and a subset of animals closely genetically related to humans?
5. If a correlation of reflected light to the human experience of color is discovered, would it be possible for a machine or non-human being to recognize the correlation?
3. The Death Penalty is a net good for humanity
1. (Follow-up What level of error rate would lead you (if you are a death penalty supporter) to change your mind about using it?)
2. (If we assume that only guilty heinous offenders are executed and the monetary cost to taxpayers is neglible, would this lead you (if you are a death penalty right-to-lifer) to change your mind about using it?)
3. If the death penalty is appropriate for many murderers, is torture followed by the death penalty appropriate for the most heinous of these cases?

Old (But Not Necessarily Forgotten) Topics - Quantify Your Agreement

1. Moral questions from this book. See MoralityQuestions
2. Religion is a net good for humanity.
3. Intelligent extraterrestrial life exists somewhere else in the universe.
4. Intelligent extraterrestrials have visited earth in the last 10,000 years.
5. There is a meaningful afterlife.
6. Jesus' dying on the cross, as described and for the purposes described in mainstream Christian belief, was an extraordinary sacrifice.

1. Will you receive social security when I retire?
2. Can some humans communicate to others via ESP?
3. In general, and over the long run, does life get better for human beings?
4. ListOfWomensIssues
5. Would you vote for Bill Gates for President?
6. Lists
1. Atlantic Monthly's 100 Most Influential Americans
2. Discover Magazine's 25 Greatest Science Books of All Time
3. Lists by Idiotic Amazon.com customers

Additional Old Topics

1. The Flynn Effect usually gets some very interesting responses.
2. The Monty Hall Problem is a fun, very unintuitive puzzle for people not familiar with it. (If you're not familiar with it, try not to look it up before asking someone about it -- it's more fun to work through the question.)
3. For people who believe that humans have souls but other animals do not -- when did souls arise? Did souls evolve along with human bodies and brains? Or did souls appear suddenly in full current form (thus inevitably making one family with soul-less parents and a soul-possessing child)? Did neanderathals have souls?
4. Should all drugs be legalized and controlled like alcohol and tobacco?
5. If government studies show that we can reduce the number of interstate fatalities by 2,500/year by reinstating the 55mph speed limit, should we do it?
1. If further studies show increased life savings down to 5 MPH, should 5 be the maximum speed for any road?
6. If we discover tomorrow that commonly available drugs like aspirin and ibuprofen account for an estimated 7,600 deaths and 76,000 hospitalizations in the United States each year, should we curtail the use of those drugs.

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